Curse

Not A Fifty Five · Apr 05, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

A lot of complaints in the PvE section are that certain classes serve no purpose in PvE. This causes a shift to play heroes instead by mesmers, dervishes, and what not. By making monsters smarter, all classes in pve can serve a purpose and less complaints about "nerfs that affect pvp a little but destroy pve" will be made. Anet has also, I believed they said, wanted to try and close the bounds between pvp and pve. Here's what I think is a very easy to implement AI to make monsters smarter.

By following all the steps here, PvE should retain the same ease for casual players while allowing all classes use and making "elite" areas actually that. Most important to this is step 3.

Step 1 General AI updates of monsters

A)All monsters aggro with the current aggro setup but aggro changes to compass range upon aggro. Monsters then choose a >>random<< ally to attack.

Pros:No more power leveling, players cannot designate "tanks" by shifting hp maximums in the party or having the designated tank aggro and retain aggro for 2-3 seconds to be the only target ,monsters are smarter

Cons:the pve meta game will change dramatically and warriors will suffer (somewhat)

B)balanced monster parties in future campaigns and current elite missions. One mesmer in every party, one monk, the rest whatever.

Pros:elite areas will actually be difficult, DoA will no longer be soloable
Cons:Cons??

C)Monsters get skills used by decent pvpers. Power shot on monsters? Even mobs have some intelligence. Elites like primal rage sadly have to remain intact on mobs for obvious reasons. >.>

Pros:smarter mobs
Cons: cons?

Step 2 Monster AIs by Role (these would also affect allied henchies, but whether or not they should affect heroes is debatable)

Warrior-type mobs: Attacks random player in the new full compass aggro. Switches target if L damage is not met every 10 seconds where L is a variable based on the monster's level. Switches target if attack is blocked 2 times in a row.

Healer-type mobs: Heals targets with lowest % max life first. Mobile while not casting spells. Protection type spells are used only on targets taking >L DPS. Condition removal and hex removal is on every bar.

Spell Interrupt-type mobs: Only spells >5 energy are interrupted by spell interrupts.

Step 3 Balance

Due to "smarter mobs" all mobs have a 20% lower level (level 28 e.g. becomes level 22 or 23 depending on rounding. Bosses deal only +50% more damage. Drops are based on the old level. The idea is also implemented on a test weekend to further assess what level of balance is needed.

Rakeman · Apr 05, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

I would LOVE it if the AI was improved to the point where it was close to fighting actual players. Every single battle would be a test of skill and thinking. Sure would be fun. The monsters die too easy.

The Ernada · Apr 05, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

I would love it as it would make PVE a lot more fun and non brainless. BUT I already know that the PVE'ers will hate this. I can already hear them screaming about how it's annoying and too hard and too PVP-ish.

Chaotic Harbinger · Apr 05, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

maybe it could be implemented to missions etc, so that characters would have to select certain skills, for missions, rather than just selecting some skills that are generally good. well i guess that is what hard modes is about. i hope it removes the amount of players that jsut use hench and heros to play the game. thats no fun at all =[

around · Apr 05, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Got it.

Give mobs secondary professions.

Stormlord Alex · Apr 05, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

I'd love an update like this, I could actually use my l33t ninja skills in PvE (rather than c-space - dead... c-space - dead... etc.)

A whole lot of whiny PvEers would complain though... PvE would be too 'hard', their mending 'tank' no longer works, stuff won't bathe in a triple-echo Meteor Shower etc.

MithranArkanere · Apr 05, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I'd like so humanoid creatures had secodary professions and variable builds.
But a spider is alwais a spider, you know, they can't 'decide' their builds and professions.

As long as some limtes are kept, I'd like the idea.

Not A Fifty Five · Apr 05, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Well like I say levels will be rebalanced so that pve is not much "harder" but more "interesting" Even with a decreased level the current meta game wouldn't work tho probably.

gameshoes3003 · Apr 05, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

In some places, it's hard enough, in other places, they do need an upgrade.

Not A Fifty Five · Apr 05, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

In some places, it's hard enough, in other places, they do need an upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not a fifty five

A lot of complaints in the PvE section are that certain classes serve no purpose in PvE. This causes a shift to play heroes instead by mesmers, dervishes, and what not. By making monsters smarter, all classes in pve can serve a purpose and less complaints about "nerfs that affect pvp a little but destroy pve" will be made. Anet has also, I believed they said, wanted to try and close the bounds between pvp and pve. Here's what I think is a very easy to implement AI to make monsters smarter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not a fifty five

Due to "smarter mobs" all mobs have a 20% lower level (level 28 e.g. becomes level 22 or 23 depending on rounding. Bosses deal only +50% more damage. Drops are based on the old level. The idea is also implemented on a test weekend to further assess what level of balance is needed.

As I say, the update is not about difficulty, its about style of play. An added balance in step 3 is to rescale the difficulty back to somewhat normal conditions.

Not A Fifty Five · Apr 07, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Bump

Wouldn't mind some more support, there's little disagreement so far.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 07, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

While I fully support the idea of making PvE more balanced and challenging, there's a few problems with your stuff:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

All monsters aggro with the current aggro setup but aggro changes to compass range upon aggro. Monsters then choose a >>random<< ally to attack.

Humans don't attack randomly, and neither do monsters. Focus firing is very important for spiking out targets. Monsters just need a little tic in their AI that says if their target isn't dead/taking much damage after maybe 10-15 seconds, switch to someone else. Byebye tanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

warriors will suffer

Warriors don't suffer in PvP where they can't stand around like dorks with a bunch of stances, they'll do fine bashing faces in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

One mesmer in every party, one monk

Again, not every human party has a mesmer or a monk. NR/tranq builds tend to use rit healers. Healer's boon necro's aren't uncommon, IWAY never had monks, numerous effective builds never use mesmers- ranger spike, IWAY, heavy warrior pressure builds, etc. It'll get pretty boring if every mob runs "balanced"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

Protection type spells are used only on targets taking >L DPS. Condition removal and hex removal is on every bar.

Only spells >5 energy are interrupted by spell interrupts.

Protection spells are really only useful for preprotting. Protting someone taking massive DPS is usually a "shutting the barn door after the horse has run away" type of situation. They're probably screwed anyway, and need an infuse more than a prot spirit. Again, not every healer bar has condition and hex removal, i.e. healer's boon.

If only spells greater than 5 energy are interrupted, it doesn't take a genius to only bring 5 energy spells.

chichory · Apr 07, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

/signed
This is what i hope hard mode brings, would be perfect.

manitoba1073 · Apr 07, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

A lot of complaints in the PvE section are that certain classes serve no purpose in PvE. This causes a shift to play heroes instead by mesmers, dervishes, and what not. By making monsters smarter, all classes in pve can serve a purpose and less complaints about "nerfs that affect pvp a little but destroy pve" will be made. Anet has also, I believed they said, wanted to try and close the bounds between pvp and pve. Here's what I think is a very easy to implement AI to make monsters smarter.

By following all the steps here, PvE should retain the same ease for casual players while allowing all classes use and making "elite" areas actually that. Most important to this is step 3.

Step 1 General AI updates of monsters

A)All monsters aggro with the current aggro setup but aggro changes to compass range upon aggro. Monsters then choose a >>random<< ally to attack.

Pros:No more power leveling, players cannot designate "tanks" by shifting hp maximums in the party or having the designated tank aggro and retain aggro for 2-3 seconds to be the only target ,monsters are smarter

Cons:the pve meta game will change dramatically and warriors will suffer (somewhat)

B)balanced monster parties in future campaigns and current elite missions. One mesmer in every party, one monk, the rest whatever.

Pros:elite areas will actually be difficult, DoA will no longer be soloable
Cons:Cons??

C)Monsters get skills used by decent pvpers. Power shot on monsters? Even mobs have some intelligence. Elites like primal rage sadly have to remain intact on mobs for obvious reasons. >.>

Pros:smarter mobs
Cons: cons?

Step 2 Monster AIs by Role (these would also affect allied henchies, but whether or not they should affect heroes is debatable)

Warrior-type mobs: Attacks random player in the new full compass aggro. Switches target if L damage is not met every 10 seconds where L is a variable based on the monster's level. Switches target if attack is blocked 2 times in a row.

Healer-type mobs: Heals targets with lowest % max life first. Mobile while not casting spells. Protection type spells are used only on targets taking >L DPS. Condition removal and hex removal is on every bar.

Spell Interrupt-type mobs: Only spells >5 energy are interrupted by spell interrupts.

Step 3 Balance

Due to "smarter mobs" all mobs have a 20% lower level (level 28 e.g. becomes level 22 or 23 depending on rounding. Bosses deal only +50% more damage. Drops are based on the old level. The idea is also implemented on a test weekend to further assess what level of balance is needed.

yes we get you have problems PvP against real people but to make the Ai like them to make some people feel better not worth the aggrovation even more than some alrdy cause. as Dr Strangelove had pointed out the general flaws here ill try to expand on some more.

Step 1 General AI updates of monsters

A)All monsters aggro with the current aggro setup but aggro changes to compass range upon aggro. Monsters then choose a >>random<< ally to attack.
a) monsters already do choose a some what limiting random target system. and we already saw when monster had unbelieveable aggro zones and would follow everywhere and that was bad enough and no you are basicllay saying you want it back. Well im still waiting on the spirit aggro bug to be fixed first. sad that if you leave a spirit half way across a map the monsters still no where you are.

Pros:No more power leveling, players cannot designate "tanks" by shifting hp maximums in the party or having the designated tank aggro and retain aggro for 2-3 seconds to be the only target ,monsters are smarter
a) Anet has already changed the way to get exp and the way they break aggro so that takes care of that for you.

Cons:the pve meta game will change dramatically and warriors will suffer (somewhat)
a) not really wont change wars any more than they are now.

B)balanced monster parties in future campaigns and current elite missions. One mesmer in every party, one monk, the rest whatever.
a) We may not be getting any further big updates after GW:EN actually for the most part the groups are fairly fine now as they are designed, lets not make fights last 50 mins instead of 10 mins

Pros:elite areas will actually be difficult, DoA will no longer be soloable
a) again we are at you not likeing people soloing. It dont effect you at all so why does it bother you so much, i feel there is a big secret you seem to be keeping from people on your supposed hate for soloing

Cons:Cons??
a)lets see here biggest con i can think of is the prices on everything would start to skyrocket. and thats a pretty big con to alot of friends i have. most of them dont have spare millions lying around like me and some others.

C)Monsters get skills used by decent pvpers. Power shot on monsters? Even mobs have some intelligence. Elites like primal rage sadly have to remain intact on mobs for obvious reasons. >.>
a) it would have to depend on the mobs. ie spider wouldnt have flame arrow.
Pros:smarter mobs
a)see the above
Cons: cons?
a)see the above

Step 2 Monster AIs by Role (these would also affect allied henchies, but whether or not they should affect heroes is debatable)

Warrior-type mobs: Attacks random player in the new full compass aggro. Switches target if L damage is not met every 10 seconds where L is a variable based on the monster's level. Switches target if attack is blocked 2 times in a row.
a) so basically you want wars to run off when ever they stop recieveing damage. hmm not a good idea escpecially if you think of RoA and some of there skills they use. there is a problem alrdy with them doing that.

Healer-type mobs: Heals targets with lowest % max life first. Mobile while not casting spells. Protection type spells are used only on targets taking >L DPS. Condition removal and hex removal is on every bar.
a) theres a problem with this also. wont nickpick it as badly as i could but yeah still easy to stop the monk even as easily as now.

Spell Interrupt-type mobs: Only spells >5 energy are interrupted by spell interrupts.
a)Dr Strangelove said it well enough on that

Step 3 Balance

Due to "smarter mobs" all mobs have a 20% lower level (level 28 e.g. becomes level 22 or 23 depending on rounding. Bosses deal only +50% more damage. Drops are based on the old level. The idea is also implemented on a test weekend to further assess what level of balance is needed.

so in otherwards you want anet to completely overhaul there mobs? as it would be nearly half the content of all 3 chapters so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

As I say, the update is not about difficulty, its about style of play. An added balance in step 3 is to rescale the difficulty back to somewhat normal conditions.

They already are working aon scaling the difficulty for you with the hard mode. But if you want a different style of play well why not change your own style instead of wanting nearly a half game revamp as this would require.

And i did laugh hard at your very first sentence. All classes serve a purpose in PvE. Its not most peoples fault they dont realize how to play certain classes or what they are capable of.

Not A Fifty Five · Apr 07, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

While I fully support the idea of making PvE more balanced and challenging, there's a few problems with your stuff:

Humans don't attack randomly, and neither do monsters. Focus firing is very important for spiking out targets. Monsters just need a little tic in their AI that says if their target isn't dead/taking much damage after maybe 10-15 seconds, switch to someone else. Byebye tanks.

Warriors don't suffer in PvP where they can't stand around like dorks with a bunch of stances, they'll do fine bashing faces in PvE.

Again, not every human party has a mesmer or a monk. NR/tranq builds tend to use rit healers. Healer's boon necro's aren't uncommon, IWAY never had monks, numerous effective builds never use mesmers- ranger spike, IWAY, heavy warrior pressure builds, etc. It'll get pretty boring if every mob runs "balanced"

Protection spells are really only useful for preprotting. Protting someone taking massive DPS is usually a "shutting the barn door after the horse has run away" type of situation. They're probably screwed anyway, and need an infuse more than a prot spirit. Again, not every healer bar has condition and hex removal, i.e. healer's boon.

If only spells greater than 5 energy are interrupted, it doesn't take a genius to only bring 5 energy spells.

Well only 5 energy spells would be severely limiting, so if they decide that, then sucks for them. If your entire party has nothing but 5 energy spells you're gonna fail.

About monks you're right, I should've worded that differently. One mesmer and one healer type. And the reasoning, yes not all builds have a mesmer and monk.. but unless you want anet to literally take common pvp builds and make monster groups like that (Will have some iway group here... a dual smite there...) this is the only way to gaurantee a "somewhat good" mob group in every group. This leaves 6+ more random mobs.

Also not every decent healer has cond and hex removal.. but every decent group does. IWAY is not decent.

As for random targets I think thats the only way people will not exploit monster AI. If all the mobs go for one target then you have SoA and bam gg, monsters will never have coordinated spikes with enchantment removal beforehand lol. This is the only real No tank I can think of for easy coding. If 8mobs attack 8 people, with randomized attacks there's something like 99% chance of someone having 2 mobs on him, and somehting greater than 50% of at least one person having 3 on him (bleagh too much probability). That's enough spike.

About preprotting.. monsters and henchies cannot make that type of decision and it just drains their energy.